Ben Russell 0:01 Okay, Matthew Wilks 0:02 hello, everybody and welcome to today's webinar, which is about getting into medicine in the UK, and Imperial College case study. My name is Matthew Wilks. I'm an international recruitment officer at Imperial College London. I'm joined by two colleagues of mine today, Professor Sahid Khan, and Ben Russell, so I'll ask them to just briefly introduce themselves and starting with Sahid, and then Ben. Sahid Khan 0:30 Thank you, Matt. So my name is Sahid Khan. I'm a professor of hepatology. So I'm an NHS consultant. I'm a liver specialist. So I'm a clinician. I'm also an academic. I do some research on liver cancer, do some teaching, and I'm also Director of Admissions and inclusivity for Imperial College School of Medicine. Ben Russell 0:54 Thank you and Hi, I'm Ben Russell. I'm the president of the medical students student union. So I am a medical student who's taken a year out of my studies to be a part of the Student Union full time. And I'm going to be going into my senior year next year and I'm going to be studying anaesthetics. Matthew Wilks 1:15 Thanks very much both. So we should be able to hopefully give you both a student view and also a view of a member of faculty as well. So you should be really, really valuable to you today. Obviously, it's an Imperial College case study, but we're going to talk as much as we can about the UK in general and getting into some of the specifics where we're able to do that. So looking at the the UK, you know, admissions process to for medicine, and these are the things we're going to be covering today but this is a go into some detail on on some of these. But this is a rough overview of what it looks like, your journey to to medicine, your application journey. And that there would be some sort of medical aptitude tests. And that you would apply through the UK system, the universities, colleges admission system. So that's a common app system for the UK, that you would have some sort of interview and go through an interview process. And then that you would be made an offer, fingers crossed. And that would be a conditional offer, based on your predicted grades. And then you would actually obviously sit your exams and give us the results. And once we've got those results through a levels, whatever qualifications it is that you're doing - IB, CBSE, we would take those and then confirm your offer at that stage. So these are the stages of the UK admissions process. And as I say, we're going to hone in in a little bit of detail into those, those different areas. So the first thing on there is that you would very, very likely be taking a medical aptitude test and for the UK, so I was going to show you to talk through a little bit about the two types of medical aptitude tests that you might take and then to talk in some detail about the BMAT, which is the one that the Imperial looks for. Sahid Khan 3:08 Sure. Thanks, Matt. Thanks, Matt. So pretty much every medical school uses one uses an aptitude test to help shortlist income in combination with predicted grades, a level grades or IB grades, etc. So the two most commonly used aptitude tests for UK medical schools are the UK and the B map. And I'll talk about the MCAT. First, we don't use that at Imperial. We used to use it when we had a graduate entry course, which we don't do anymore. But the MCAT is a computer based exam which takes two hours to do. It tests verbal reasoning, decision making, quantitative reasoning, abstract reasoning, and situational judgement. And it's maybe a bit less sciency compared to the BMAT. The BMAT exam is different. It's a paper based two hour exam. It tests situational judgement, scientific knowledge and application and also includes a writing task and is used by a smaller number of medical schools including Imperial. Now, the BMAT schools needed.... they do, at Imperial help determine shortlisting for interview. These are the international cutoff schools that were required this year. And we can see that for international cutoff for sections one and two combined score had to be 11.2 or greater. And the minimum scores for each section are shown there. So the exact grade required varies from year to year because we look at the spread of scores, and we make a cut off that year. So I think the important point if you are considering applying to a UK med school is to look at which of these tests the med schools want. And look at the exams look at past papers online, because they're different exams and you may feel more confident about one than the other. Some people do both BMAT and UCAT and apply to med schools that want both. And some will apply to med schools that just want one of those exams. But if you're doing that, make sure that you've researched the exams and are doing the one that you think you're more likely to be suited to. Matthew Wilks 6:04 Great, thanks. Thanks, Sahid. And so if we move on so we've looked a little bit about the the medical aptitude tests, which is the first one of those, those introductory blocks on that first slide. And the next one was about the UCAS form. I won't go into too much detail about this, because obviously, you'll have sent students and, you know, gone through lots and lots of UCAS forms with them. But just very, very briefly, we're not looking for any GCSE requirements in that UCAS form, we're looking for the grades, that you're that you're, you know, this for the exams you're currently taking. The college, Imperial College will accept if you've done a GCSE English language, and got the equivalent to an old, an old Grade B, and then in the numerical form, then we'd accept that and you wouldn't need to take IELTS or anything like that. We're looking for you to be taking three subjects, at least. So three subjects a level or three high level In the in IB, and then we're looking for relatively high scores, although not, you know, not the highest that the Imperial will ever will ever look for, but medicine in general is going to be asking for relatively high academic scores and really trying to test a whole load of other factors beyond just your academic performance as well. The other parts of the of the UK application along with the, you know, the actual form itself are the academic reference. And I know many of you will be reference writers as counsellors, and the personal statement, and many of you will obviously running personal statement workshops and helping your students with with personal statements. So I'll invite Sahid as somebody who obviously looks at a lot of personal statements to talk about what he's looking for, in personal statements, what he thinks that students should include. And then we'll also have a look in a in a bit more detail what to include, perhaps in in an academic reference, so I'll hand over to you Sahid. Sahid Khan 8:02 Yeah, thanks, Matt. So the personal statement it needs to be personal. So the clues in the name so it needs to really come from the heart and different medical schools plays different emphasis a different amount of emphasis on the personal statement. And at Imperial, we don't really use the personal statement in terms of shortlisting, but we will refer to it and use it at the interview. Some medical schools may really put a great deal of emphasis on the personal statement at the shortlisting for interview stage. So it does vary from from medical to medical, but wherever you're applying, it will, it will have a role somewhere in the application process. So it's, it's important to do a good personal statement. As I said, it's gotta be personal, it's got to come from the heart, and it's got to focus on on certain areas. It's, it's not about your academic stuff, the other parts of the assessment look into the academic criteria. This is personal. This is about why do you want to do medicine so you need to be specific. And to show that you understand that medicine as a career is challenging. And what you've done to try and find out what medicine is, is really like as much as possible without actually being a doctor, and and discuss how, how you're, how you're a global person, that you're an experienced person, a well balanced person, you're interested in community, your personal interests, things that tell us that you have outlets for stress that you're not just an academic that you do other things. And an important bit of advice in the personal statement is whatever you put down on the personal statement, you may be asked about so do not put anything down on there. That you're not putting prepared to discuss the interview. And certainly do not put anything on there that is is not necessarily true. But it's your chance to really tell us a bit more about yourself, particularly on the non academic side. And what's special about you why you want to do medicine and why you would be a good doctor. Matthew Wilks 10:21 Brilliant, thank you. And do you want to just touch on it because a lot of the counsellors that are listening today will be will be academic reference writers, would you mind touching on you know how much you use the academic reference and if you know, what you'd be looking out for within that piece? Sahid Khan 10:38 Yeah, so in the academic reference, we are we're looking for... because obviously, we've not met the candidate at this stage but what we're looking for is a reference to it reassures us that a the person who's applying is academically strong long enough to do the course and cope with it. And B has a persona or personality that is suited to the field of medicine and is an all around person who's not just gonna study but but contribute to the university and contribute to the wider community in years to come as a doctor so we're looking for an academic well balanced sort of person that that would be the ideal reference really. Matthew Wilks 11:32 great, thanks. Right. And a question I get asked quite quite a lot when I'm when I'm out and about on the road. And you know, meeting counsellors and things like that is about work experience and you know, is work experience compulsory and is it something that I should include in my in my personal statement and what you know, in a lot of countries, if you're not 18, you're not able to go and do any kind of shadowing in a hospital or anything like that. So what what can they do perhaps as an alternative, so is it is it compulsory and first of all, and what what sort of work experience should people be could people be looking for? Sahid Khan 12:11 So it's, it's it's expected that in most UK med schools that whoever's applied has done something to try and get a feel for what it's like working with with people and working with the vulnerable and working with patients. So, and some sort of work experiences is is expected it doesn't necessarily have to be shadowing in a hospital. It could be volunteering, it could be volunteering at a charity, it could be volunteering at a hospital, even if it's just, you know, giving breakfast to people or volunteering at a hospital or a nursing home or St. Johns ambulance. It could be administrative tasks, but just something to show that you have touched the world of healthcare. You work with people and to give you an insight into what it's like working with, with other people. So we understand that that not everyone is able to do high level attachments in fancy hospitals and we don't expect that but but work experience of any description like I've, like I've explained in other forms is also equally acceptable. And we... it's it's very very very frequently brought up at interview Matthew Wilks 13:34 Okay, so I want to bring in bringing Ben and just so Ben, can you remember the experience of writing your your personal statement and what you included, what you didn't include and what sort of work experience you you might have done if you can cast your mind mind back that far? Ben Russell 13:52 I'll try and remember. So I think for the personal statement to get a good personal statement, it takes a few months and quite a few drafts to get through. And I'd recommend coming coming up with a list of ideas and achievements. And things that you've done or things that you think would be good to show the students off in the best light, and then have a look for recommended structures. There are quite a few different types of order that people use their personal statements. But I think it's important to pick one that fits your experiences fits what you would like to include and fits your style. I think that's the most important thing about how to how to structure it. And I think I'm sure had might disagree with this, but I took a slight risk with mine and I aimed for something a little bit different. I wanted to make it a bit more interesting. So it wasn't just the list of achievements because I know admissions tutors have to read through hundreds and hundreds of these for every every single year. So I just aimed to make it stand out a little. But what did I do I, I made I made it more like a story. So I made it sound more creative and less just like a list of list of activities. I'm not going to give you examples because it's quite embarrassing but but Sahid Khan 15:23 You've exemplified exactly what I said that it's got to be personal. And it sounds like you made it very personal and and and, and that's why it stood out. So I think that obviously worked for you because you're here! Ben Russell 15:35 definitely Yeah, I think it was it was all about I took experiences that were very unique to me. So things that I done, things that I learned and personal things and then try to try to weave them into this narrative, which Yeah, like you said, I think clear clearly worked. And that's what people are looking for. In my experience. I did include work experience and my personal statement, but I think we were always told, and I think there's still rings true that one of the most important things to say is what you've learnt from your work experience, what you've got out of it, how it's helped you understand the healthcare system better how it's helped you understand, working with people, or like, like Sahid said, with vulnerable people, as well. And I think that's the most important. You said, what work experience did I do? That really is casting my mind back. I volunteered, like you said with the admin side, actually, I volunteered doing some admin for a healthcare charity. And that was only for a week or two, but that helped me see a different side of healthcare that wasn't specifically related to the actual medical practising medical aspects. It kind of opened my eyes up to the to the other sides of healthcare. And then I also did some weekend volunteering in a care home, which was, again very, very useful and it helped to reaffirm the belief that medicine was the right thing for me and reaffirm, I did enjoy working with people. And I did enjoy working in that kind of environment, even though it's a high stress environment, and it still appeals. So I think those were the most important things. And it was very important in the personal statement to try and express that and get that across that those were the aspects that I drawn out of it, that I hadn't just done it to tick boxes, it was genuinely as an exploration of the career. I think an exploration of how it how a future, how my future career could be impacted by that. Other things to include in the personal statement, the extracurricular activities that you do, and always link back to how this would make you a good doctor, or how this makes you a well rounded person how this makes you approachable and friendly to normal people is always helpful and also other ways that you demonstrated leadership and teamwork, which are two of the absolute key aspects that people are always looking for, for medicine?Once I'd done that, I just sent it to everyone who wanted to listen. So to friends, teachers, family members, and just got feedback from everyone. And a lot of different people have a lot of different feedback. So that's something that I'd also really recommend. Do not be afraid to go through many, many drafts of the personal statement. Matthew Wilks 18:33 Amazing, thank you. Thank you both. It's really really insightful. I hope you found that you found that helpful about the personal statements about the academic references. If you want to find out a bit more about writing personal statements and advice and tactics and when to get started and things like that. And you can google Imperial College webinars and there is a personal statements webinar on there and it goes right into the into the the nitty gritty and structuring and things like that. So same with with Ben, you've also had had the experience of a panel interview, you probably multiple panel interviews when you were applying for medicine. And you've also been helping with Imperials you know move to to MMIs which which we now use. Could you talk about, you know, on this slide a little bit of the experience of the panel interviews and your experience of being, you know, an organiser and interview for the MMI. Ben Russell 19:35 Sure, thank you, Matt. Yeah, so I, I experienced both panel and MMI is when I was actually interviewing for my place at medical schools, and you can tell that they are very different and they are looking for very different things. And then having also sat on the on the, on the interviewer side for the MMI this year. It was very, very interesting and you do see a completely different One side to having MMI is to panel interviews. So I'm sure I think she's going to speak a little bit more about what's included in, in the multi mini interviews, stage. But it's basically lots of very short stations, with different interviewers each time. And they're always testing different things. The idea is that it's a bit more holistic and it shows a more rounded view of the whole person, I think because they're so short, and they're just testing all these little aspects rather than just asking you questions, they can genuinely get into your character a bit more, which is very important for a career like medicine. It's a little bit more intense, in my experience, because it can consist of anything from questions to scenarios, role plays, discussions about the news or ethics. And this means that you never really know what's coming up. But it also means that there's a lot have different opportunities to make a good impression on many different people, which can then all aggregate and come to a better score than with panel interviews themselves. They were, I think, generally a shorter experience. It's just one interview with a bunch of people in a room. Lots of them will be academics. And usually they have a student on the panel as well. And then the interviews, talking largely about somebody's personal statement, and it will have some questions about medical ethics, for example, or a case based scenario that they have to discuss or things about the NHS, or how a student would approach certain experiences. So less breadth of things will come up because it's a shorter experience. And it's not testing all the complete range of things that the stations and an MMI would test. But there is a shorter time to make a strong impression on the interview. is. So it's very, very important to make that strong impression and a good impression within the past five minutes because a lot of panel interviews might not be longer than 10 minutes. So it's very difficult to explain and get into as much depth as you'd like to show especially after doing lots of preparation for interviews. Matthew Wilks 22:25 Thanks, Ben. Sahid, if you're able to talk through on the on the next slide, the multiple mini mini interview structure and then I'll ask you both have a few different questions about about interviews and things like that, but I had empty Sahid to talk about multiple mini interviews at Imperial Sahid Khan 22:46 Sure. So many met many medical schools in the UK use this now including Imperial MMI is or multiple mini interviews. At Imperial we have seven stations. We have an introduction or Ice Breaker station and six other stations. Most med schools have somewhere between seven and 10 sort of stations. So how it works is that the candidates being interviewed at a time depend on how many stations there are. So at Imperial there'd be seven candidates being interviewed at a time. They're brought into a hall which has various sections barricaded off, and they start at one station randomly. And they they go into each station into each area for five minutes. There's and then there's a one minute break before they go on to the next station and the timing is is organised by a bell ring. And each station they will be interviewed by one or two different people. And so in the course of seven stations, they may be interviewed by 10 people. Each station is only five minutes, but it focuses on a particular area that we would like to explore further in terms of our selection. So, once the icebreaker station may just be a little bit about yourself why you want to do medicine, then other stations would look into things like one's motivation and understanding of medicine as a career there, we usually have a role play station, looking at your communication empathy, so we might have an actor or we have to engage in a scenario. We will have a station about teamwork and leadership and assessing resilience. We may have a station about your contribution that you think you would make to the medical school if you came to Imperial etc. So so the interview would probably last with the seven 500 stations plus the brain so less than 45 minutes and the students rotate around. And that's how we did it Imperial as of this year. Matthew Wilks 25:10 Okay, so you've said that as of this year so an obvious an obvious question is why why did Imperial make the decide to make the switch from from panel interviews to to MMIs? Can you shed any light on that? Sahid Khan 25:24 Yeah, that's a good question. So we've been doing panel interviews for many, many years and other med schools have started to move to MMIs. And over the last few years, they've been a fair few educational research papers suggesting MMI performances may be fair to judge. So we actually did a couple of pilots where we did a panel interview, but we are some candidates that they want to have an MMI as well. And in keeping with the scientific literature, we found that panel interviews and MMI performances correlated reasonably well. But there is a signal in the research that MMIs have put some potential added advantages in that, that you it has the advantage of more objectively generating multiple impressions of the applicants abilities and skills. So in the course of a panel interview, you might be interviewed by three people or four people. Whereas in in an MMI, you may be interviewed between by between seven and 12 people. So it gives it means that we can have more people involved in your selection. And medicine is a very multidisciplinary field of work. So, we can have students, we can have physios, we can have nurses being involved in the interview process, academics, doctors, and so we can get a broader viewpoint from other allied professionals as to as to your suitability for medicine and all. So, students are sometimes said to us that panel interviews if, if the first question they struggled on, they found it very difficult to, to, you know, to make up for it in a panel interview, but with an MMI you start each station fresh with a fresh examiner, so you can reboot every station. So, and also the MMI can be more efficient to run, we think the scoring system is fair because each station is scored independently. In a panel interview, there's one sort of agreement mark, but here you have much more independent marking. So you can look at the scores across the board, arrange, etc. So, for all those reasons, we decided to switch switch fully to MMI from this year. Matthew Wilks 27:57 Right. Thanks for shedding some some light on that. I am. Ben, I've got a question as somebody who's obviously been through panel interviews and then being an interview for the MMI. Have you got any advice for counsellors on how to sort of help prep their students? Was there anything that you noticed as an interviewer on the MMI? is where you were like, Oh, this student could if they just done this thing that they might have performed slightly better or anything you wish that you'd prep harder or differently for you when you're doing your panel interviews? Ben Russell 28:41 Thank you. So, yes, I think there are some key things that I would say are very important when you're preparing for interviews. And it is very easy to actually tell when you're sitting on the panel who is who has prepared in the right way who was prepared in the wrong way perhaps and who has not prepared at all, which if you don't feel like when you're going into it as a student that it will be that obvious for the interviewers. But having now sat on both sides of the table, I know that it it can be almost a make or break thing about each interview. The key message I think, is practice. Not to the point of exhaustion and not to the point of learning answers, but just practice answering questions that are thrown at you that you that the students don't really know what coming just practice talking about all different aspects of things that might be just that might come up but interview so practice talking about the NHS values, and why the student wants to become a doc, why they want to study in the UK, all kinds of questions like that. Best way to prepare, in my opinion, and from having seen lots of people come In now is bullet pointing answers to common questions. So there are some questions that will probably always come up at MMI as wherever they're done in the UK. And those are questions like, why do you want to become a doctor? And tell us a little bit about your experiences and how that's how that's affected you. And I think it's very easy to, to bullet point, some key facts that you must get across in these nations, obviously, keeping it same as the person's name and keeping it very personal to you. But it's important to not learn this as a script. This is very obvious. And it's also quite boring for interviewers to listen to, because people who have sat there and listened to hundreds of candidates, find it very easy to figure out which ones are speaking from the heart, and who are just learning a pre prepared script. So I think it's very important to come prepared know some answers, but not having learnt exactly what you're going to say because that's very, that's very easy to tell. There are some key things you're gonna come up Oh, sorry. Sahid Khan 31:11 Sorry when you finish now then I'll add something to the end. Ben Russell 31:14 Okay, I was just gonna say there are some key things that I think that are important. And this was true when I was doing interviews, but also, it's still true now. And it is a knowing some basic medical ethics, nothing in too much detail. The discussions aren't going to go into philosophy degree level detail, but just knowing the basics can show that you've got an interest in the career that you're pursuing. Talk about the NHS values, which again, I think Professor Kahn is going to speak about in a minute and having at least read some of the documents from the from the UK so the GMC, the General Medical Council, published some quite good documents about what they expect from medical schools, what they expect from medical students and what they expect from doctors, and obviously not being able to quote those off by hand, but being having at least read them and know the gist of them, and knowing, getting getting a feel for the kind of things that they're after. The final thing I think, is just staying up to date with health news, and BBC News. The health section is probably the best free way of doing that. And it's very easy to just log on every day and read the health news on BBC News to find out what's relevant in the UK at that moment. Sahid Khan 32:36 No, I was just gonna say I, I think that's really good advice. I think the thing about it's difficult because we say to people, you know, prepare for the interview. But if you if you come across as too prepared, then that doesn't go down too well, either. So it's a balance between preparing but not coming across as an automated or robotic. as Ben says, you know, If we really want to see the passion, you know, for as an interview, that's what it's about, it's about this person, they really, they really, really want to do medicine within the from themselves, and they're really passionate about it. And that passion has to come through. So it's not just about the words that come out of your mouth, it's how you save, as well. Matthew Wilks 33:23 Okay, thank you. Thank you both. I think that's really, really some clear and helpful advice for when you're preparing students for, you know, interviews, you know, across the UK, potentially interviews from medical schools across the world, I think a lot of what they they're saying we person for the UK, US, your home countries, wherever that that is, and you both mentioned that and you the values of the of the NHS National Health Service. You know, as international counsellors, this is something you need to be prepping your students for. So, very helpfully Professor Kahn is gonna talk a little bit about what why that's valuable for a student to know about and, and what those values values are. So I'll hand over to you Sahid. Sahid Khan 34:12 Thanks. So the NHS National Health Service is a very beloved institution, which was born out of the Second World War and the contributions from people from all walks of society during the war effort. And pretty much every person in the UK has been touched by the NHS in some way. either directly or a member of the family, either being born in an NHS hospital or being treated in the NHS. And pretty much everyone from across the political spectrum, loves the NHS and during this COVID crisis every Thursday, 8pm people come out of their front doors millions of people and clap for NHS workers and care home workers and key workers. So it holds a very special place and in the in the in the nation's hearts. And the values of it, I don't think are particularly unique to the UK. I think if you look at the values of our health service, improving lives, respect, dignity, everyone counts, commitment to quality, working together for patience, compassion, patience to the centre of everything. I think if you're into any doctor or nurse or healthcare professional anywhere, anywhere in the world or any health service, I think they would agree with these values. I don't think it's particularly unique to the to the UK. But this is how in the NHS we have distilled what we think are the key values. And the importance regarding interviews is that at medical, school and imperial and most medical schools, mostly places are for home EU students are subsidised by the government. And we know that most people come into medical school will spend at least some time working in the NHS, if not most of their working lives in the NHS. So, from a government level, we are asked to, to look for these values during the selection process of anyone who will be potentially entering the NHS in any allied health care professional. So it's incumbent on us during selection process to see whether the people we are selecting who may work in the NHS have the similar values. So we do try during the selection process to look at these areas as well in during the interview process, for example, in your personal statement, so it's very important to understand what these values are and know about them. To know that people are looking that your values align to these values. Matthew Wilks 37:08 Okay, so if we keep moving on so we've looked at the the NHS constitution, and we've gone sort of right through a lot, a lot of the different touch points of the the application process for the UK, and trying to look in a bit more detail at what it is that medical schools might be looking for. I think it's really important to be really realistic about applying to a UK medical school as an international student. So I've shared on this slide, the number of this is just for Imperial, the number of applications we get for students from international students. And then the number of students who we actually make offers to in place and the number who were invited, invited to interview. So you can see that we get to 889 applications for entry. The last September that obviously will have probably gone up even more it goes up year on year, the number of applications we're getting. And you can see that the BMAT score is really important as a shortlisting tool, alongside that reference a personal statement predicted grades, but of those 889 we then invited 129 students to interview. So it's important to read really be realistic, I think when you're when you're looking at these and perhaps for some students, if necessary to start talking about what might be the you know, really good alternatives to medicine for bright stem minded students, if these are the realities of applying, and so, what, whilst looking at that I sort of touched on helping students to think about whether you know, medicine is right for them. So I put this this question, you know, first you Sahid and then Ben if you want to weigh in on that, you know, who is medicine right for who is in what sort of student are you hoping will come on to onto the course. Ben - what sort of students are you hoping will come in and be your your peers and people who you're going to be, you know, helping to teach to and things like that. So who is medicine right for? As I said, we start with Sahid and then go to Ben. Sahid Khan 39:21 Yeah, thanks, Matt. So, there's, there's a broad range of people medicine is right for because medicine is a is a very diverse, broad church and one of the attractions of medicine is the sheer number of different specialties one can do. So, one can become a brain surgeon or a GP or a paediatrician or an army doctor or public health person or even seeing patients or research. So within the field of medicine, I don't know if any other degree which gives such diverse range of potential specialties and so there's something for most people. However, there are some things that are common to pretty much every specialty within medicine. And that is that medicine is hard work. And it can be very challenging at times, particularly in your early years when you're doing as a junior doctor, when you are deciding what specialty you're going to do in your early training, and do lots of long hours, weekends, night shifts, and at the same time, you're studying for postgraduate exams. And it's so it's it's challenging in terms of your time. It's challenging in terms, it's physically challenging, emotionally challenging, you will see things and do things that very few people outside of medicine will experience and sometimes they can be very difficult. So it can be very stressful. So really the who's the right for it's right for you if you really want to do medicine. So that's the important thing for me is that it's like anything else, if you really want to do if that's really is your passion, then it won't seem like hard work. So it's right for people who really want to do it for the right reasons. And that is that they want to do it themselves. So it's not right for people to do for any other reason because of social status, or to impress family or school. Because it's a long career. You will qualify in your early mid 20s. And you'll be working till the mid late 60s those 40 years. And you've really got to want to do it yourself. So if you really believe in those values we've spoken about, if you really have a passion for it, then it's right for you. Ben Russell 41:59 Yeah, I think I mostly want to echo what Professor Khan said, I suppose it's it is it's very, very rewarding at times. And I'm sure when I qualify to be adopted, it will be as equally as rewarding as it has been to be a medical student, if not more, but it's just getting comes back to just being realistic that it is a very long course. And that's just the time at university. That's the five or six years spent studying just the theory and getting used to it. You never really finished training. And I think this comes back to what Professor Khan said about you must be very interested in it. You have to be interested in the theory. You have to be interested in the people you have to be interested in how how to apply this and how to work with people quite challenging people sometimes. That's to make this a serious career option because there are more exams within two years of finishing your medical degree. You have to complete more exams in the UK and I assume many other countries across the world. And every time you want to progress after that there are lots of more exams that keep having to be revised or and sat, even though we work full time. And it being completely honest, it is well paid in most countries, but only from the ages of, I don't know 35 to 40. So only once you reach senior levels within the healthcare systems, it's not the best paid job for the amount of work that you actually have to do. I think if financial stability is one of the goals and there are there are much more efficient careers much more effective ways of getting to financial stability than working for your doctor because it's hard work. And the payoff is, I suppose small, emotional payoff is large, but the financial payoff is small compared to how much work goes into it. In terms of the kind of people that I'd like to work with, and you know, I'd like to be my colleagues, which is you said, I think, well rounded people is what we all would like to spend our times with and research with and go out with and do all of our work with. So this is well rounded people who are very good team players. That's a very important part of being a doctor, I think, team players who are willing to work with all sorts of different people from all sorts of backgrounds. Matthew Wilks 44:36 Great, thank you both for that insight. So very, very briefly because a question we get asked a lot. Will Brexit have an effect on the international student cap because I should have been clearer that the reason that we that we have so few students placed in the interview so few students on this slide is that the UK Government sets a cap For each university on the number of international students it is allowed to take and train. So will Brexit have an effect on that on that cap on international students, which is which is from the government? Sahid Khan 45:14 Yeah, that's a good question. It probably will, but we don't know what effect it will have at the moment. Most med schools that are government subsidised are only allowed to take less than 10% of overseas full time some of their place less than 10% of their places with overseas students by overseas it means not home and not EU. So after Brexit and the EU students may be classified as overseas students. So that may mean we can increase the number of international students but they might include EU but we don't know because it depends on the deals made between the UK Government and the rest of The EU. And that's a decision that's obviously going to be made at senior government level. So we we don't know exactly what the deals are going to be done between Britain and the EU regarding university students and their classification. So it's a very good question, but we simply just don't know yet and won't know for for some months, but it's important to keep an eye on that space. Matthew Wilks 46:29 Sure. And I think that for full, full disclosure, I touched on it there, that universities that are subsidised by the by the government, medical schools that are subsidised by the government are subject to this cap, and that is almost all of them. But there is, there are a couple of universities, private universities, private medical schools that don't have a cap. So you can do some research into into those as well if you want to We've got just less than 10 minutes left. So we'll try and run through these as quickly as you can. And I'd ask you, both try to keep your answers as short and pointed as you as possibly can. So we can get through as many as many questions as possible. So what are some of the differences between UK medics medical schools up here? And then I've got a series of questions that I was going to put to you from, from my experience of travelling around speaking to people. The first being what's the difference between a five year medical course and a six year undergraduate medical costs in the UK? And is that something Sahid that you'd be happy to answer? Sahid Khan 47:44 So, so very straightforward. So if you do a six year course, then in the middle of your course in the third or fourth year, you take an extra year out to do an intercalated BSc. So that could be in a number of different specialties. It could be for example, in gastroenterology which I run Imperial or Pharmaceutical Sciences, Cardiovascular Sciences or something else like that. So it means at the end of six years you you will have a BSc as well as the MBBS medical degree. And in some medical schools doing the six years is compulsory. For example, Imperial and in some medical schools most people do a five year course and during the six year additional a year is is not compulsory. So that's basically the difference. Matthew Wilks 48:37 Do you think it's what's the what's the advantage perhaps of having the extra BSc you touch on that when you say what is an advantage? Sahid Khan 48:46 I don't think it's a disadvantage. I think it probably is an advantage because it makes you get it allows you to go into detail in an area that might interest you do, you don't have to end up doing that specialty in your future career. But the BSc Imperial is a very good BSc programme. There's about 15 to 20 BSc pathways to choose from, you get experience of research because, obviously pathways are the three month dedicated time period where you're just doing a project with no exams. You get to learn some research skills, presentation skills has to do with stats. So you definitely learn some generic skills, which will help you in your future, you also have an additional degree. And if you are applying for jobs as a junior doctor, it may strengthen your CV to have the extra degree. And also it gives you an opportunity because you've done some research to potentially sometimes get a publication or to or present your research at a national or international conference which will strengthen your CV so and so we make it compulsory on everyone, we think it's a good thing to do. So I think there are some advantages, certainly to doing it. Matthew Wilks 50:12 Brilliant. Okay. Next question. We'll rattle through these two question for for Ben? How do you think, you know as much as he as you can with your with your knowledge of this? How do you think studying in London differs to studying in other parts of the UK? Ben Russell 50:31 Yeah, so studying in London is a bit of an unusual one, because compared to lots of other universities that are across the UK, it's not particularly campus based, which I know many, many other universities are. So this means there's there's no large hub where all of the students spend all of their time. There are a few different sites that people move around and people live in normal residential housing, on normal streets with Families and other professionals. But I think this also gives you it's a very vibrant life in London. And there are lots of opportunities that are all around you very close to many aspects of UK life. London has a pretty representative population and also a pretty representative amount of opportunities that are around so this is your very near to the theatres you're very often very near to international conferences that are held in London all the time. And obviously, especially for international students sightseeing aspects are very interesting and you can you can go and see most of the UK major sites probably shouldn't say that but most of the most of the good UK sites are based in London you can go and experience those. Also close to the London universities which is which is nice because there is a sort of relationship between students of different London universities so enables you to meet other people But going outside of London, there are also advantages. And I know lots of people do enjoy the campus based life and studying and living completely in a student zone, which can also be a fantastic experience is probably less relevant for medical students. Because wherever you are, you'll be sent out to placements across your region of the UK. So you'll have to go to lots of different hospitals when you hit clinical years. So it's less relevant for medical students, I think, but it's still something to consider when making applications to where you want to study in the UK. Matthew Wilks 52:42 a question from me - I mean, you can both both touch on this but we've only got a few minutes and we need to move on to the very last slide. But the question is, in many countries, studying medicine requires you to have already studied, you know, a degree at university already Why does the UK not require this? And do you think that you would create better doctors if students had had more life experience? So I'll come to come to stride first. And, Ben, if you if you want to sort of say something about that, as somebody who entered medical school, you know, straight out out of school without a degree first, then, you know, feel free to wait now offers. Sahid Khan 53:21 Yeah, so in other countries where you do a degree first and then you do medicine, that's fine. But then when you do medicine, it's not usually six years. So it's a shortened course it may be four years. So if you combine both degrees, it may be a total of six or seven years and not that much different to doing a six year undergraduate course in the UK. And many medical schools including Imperial are also very happy or even actively encouraged students taking a gap here to take some extra time mature a bit to get gained some life experience as well. So, I think by the end of that, if someone's taking a gap year, they've done a six year degree, then they'd become adopted seven years after med school, which I think is, is plenty of time and you've got to start earning some, you know, earning a salary at some point. And, yes, Ben Russell 54:17 Absolutely! Sahid Khan 54:21 And, and, you know, looking back I, you know, when I look at, you know, I've been qualified 25 years, and when I look back at generations of students that I've trained with and that I have trained. I don't think that they, you know... I think they're fantastic. I think they're amazing. I don't think they're lacking in any way for having not done a degree before medicine. And we do have graduate places as well. So it's not that we don't, one graduate say a small proportion of places are reserved for people who have degree already in most medical schools for graduate entry, but that's even more competitive than undergraduate entry for home students anyway. And so, you know, so again, we do like to have a diverse range of people, you know, coming to our medical schools. So we do have some graduate offers as well. But I don't think you need to do medicine as a second degree to be a mature doctor. Matthew Wilks 55:25 Thank you. So anything you want to very, very quickly add to that, Ben? Ben Russell 55:30 Yeah, just just wanted to very quickly say that, I think the maturity is a large aspect as well. But if you've done the proper amount of work experience, if you've genuinely used it, not just for personal statement reasons, but use the work experience to really have a feel for what the career is like. I think that can add a massive sense of knowing about the working world and knowing how you're going to fit into this larger healthcare system. So I think work experience also does enable you to be more prepared For this and more prepared for actually practising as a doctor and the long course as well. Matthew Wilks 56:08 Great, thank you to both of you. So the very last slide to, move,move this on. And his question, which is what might be the effects of COVID-19? We can't get away with doing webinar at the moment without talking how COVID in some way, what might the effects of COVID-19 be on teaching placements and examinations for future cohorts? And I was hoping this is something Sahid if you're able to shed any light and give any any details, already very short says at the at the moment. Sahid Khan 56:39 Yeah, so this is a very good question. It's something that's all teachers and faculty members that all universities all over the world really are thinking about. And social distancing is currently in place in the UK although, as as we're speaking, today lockdown restrictions across most of Europe are slowly and gently being eased and we don't know what effect that's going to have on, on on the virus with there'll be another peak as a result. So so no one knows exactly what the situation will be come September, October, when the new academic year starts whether we will be in a relatively virus free zone, or whether we're still going to be practising social distancing. At Imperial, we are planning for both situations. So we we are, there's plans firmly in place for how we would deliver high quality teaching, if there is social distancing or lockdown measures to in place. And we we have a fantastic track record already with this because we did finals exams remotely for the first time ever and was carried out very successfully. So every faculty member lead of every course is planning currently actively what to do in the scenario, whether when we may be limited in terms of face to face teaching. So that includes, we're using online teaching materials, preparing that making sure we have a Information Technology up to speed, preparing smaller group tutorials to maintain social distancing, if that's what's required at the time. So you know, we are very, very actively preparing for this. If that situation arises, exactly what the situation will be in September, October, no one really knows. But whatever it is, we'll be ready. Matthew Wilks 58:48 Brilliant, thank you. Thank you so much. That's very reassuring words and if you've if you've got students who are who are asking you about coming to the UK, you know fit for 2020 entry as counts. Please do get in touch with us international recruitment imperial.ac.uk if you want any advice and things like that, and we should be communicating very, very, very soon with you the very beginning of June, if not earlier, what campus is going to look like come this this fall. So that brings us to the end of today's presentation. So I say a really big thank you to, to both Ben and to Professor Kahn. So thank you very, very much for giving up your time. I hope you found that really insightful. And as I've said, Do you get in touch with us international dash recruitment imperial.ac.uk or www.imperial.ac.uk, forward slash study for the website, and all of the different social media as well. That brings us to the end of today's presentation. So thank you very, very much for listening. And hopefully we'll see some of your students on campus come September.